The Beyond Pain Podcast

Episode 76: Do You Really Need Squat, Bench, Deadlift? Training Around Pain and The Big 3

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Summary

In this episode of the Beyond Pain podcast, hosts Joe Gambino and Joe LaVacca discuss the relevance of the big three strength exercises: squat, deadlift, and bench press. 

They explore whether these exercises are necessary for everyone, the importance of functional movements in daily life, and the need for movement variability. 

The conversation emphasizes that while the big three can be beneficial, there are numerous alternatives that can achieve similar strength and functional outcomes. 

The hosts encourage listeners to find what works best for their bodies and goals, highlighting the importance of personalization in fitness routines.

Takeaways

  • You don't need to squat, deadlift, or bench press to be strong.
  • Functional movements are essential for daily life activities.
  • Strength training should focus on individual goals and needs.
  • There are many alternatives to the big three exercises.
  • Movement variability is crucial for overall fitness and injury prevention.
  • Personalization in exercise is key to success.
  • The back squat is not a natural movement for everyone.
  • Powerlifting is a sport, not a requirement for fitness.
  • Exploring different movement patterns can enhance performance.
  • Finding comfort in movement is more important than perfect form.

Joe Gambino (00:00)
Welcome back into the Beyond Pain podcast. I am one of your hosts, Joe Gambino. I'm here with our other host, Joe Lavacca. You can find us both on Instagram at joegambinodpt for myself at strength and motion underscore PT for Lavacca over there. If you want to follow the show, it is on Instagram, Beyond Pain podcast and also on YouTube cups of Joe underscore PT. If you want to watch us there. That's it. Short and easy. We're back into it. We have a quick hitter.

Joe LaVacca (00:29)
We're back.

Joe Gambino (00:29)
Today we're talking about the big three strength exercises, squat, bench, deadlift. Do you need them? Do you want them? What else can you do? I think it's, you know, in my mind I hear all the time that people feel the need that they have to squat, they have to deadlift, they have to bench. Even if they have pain, Sometimes it's a identity. They just like powerlifting and sometimes it's, I just think that I need to do those things. So.

I feel like this is gonna be a beneficial conversation for a lot of our listeners and help them understand whether they need it or not and maybe some other options that they can do if they are finding that maybe from a mobility perspective, a pain perspective or whatever else that they just struggle with one of those three things. So thoughts there Joey Boy.

Joe LaVacca (01:19)
Well, ⁓ yes, this definitely is going to be a conversation that comes up weekly. So I'm glad that we're having it here. Do you need to squat? Do you need to deadlift? Do you need to push? Yes, right? I mean, this is just what life has in store for you, right? Getting up out of chairs, lifting things from the floor, opening doors, pulling things out of shelves, putting them back up, right? So yes, you are going to find that in life,

those movements are essentially superpowers. And if we're looking at long-term health and lifespan data, well, the more independent you are usually correlates with grip strength and quad strength and balance. And, you we can probably break down every single variable. So bringing in strength consistently.

will help you in the long term. And I think that's always everyone's goal now, especially with all this functional medicine and biohacking. People don't usually talk to me about these four, eight, 12 week increments anymore in their workouts. They're talking to me about, I want to age better. I want to live longer. And this is a big shift in the conversation from when you and I...

Joe Gambino (02:40)
I don't know, Joe, if the conversation

is because of all the biohacking or just because we're getting older and as we're approaching 40, the people that we talk to are more, hey, I want to age better. Back in our 20s, all I cared about was biceps and how much I could squat down at the bench. I don't know, Joe, could y'all just be our generation now?

Joe LaVacca (02:46)
We're meeting older people.

Hahaha

You

Yeah, that's fair. guess, you know, our population seems pretty pretty similar. But then we haven't really niche down ultra into like athletic performance, return to sport testing, field progressions, team things that. So, yeah, I guess I don't really know what the high school and collegiate populations are saying. It is probably not that. So good point, ⁓ But I think going back to the point of, yeah,

All of our clients to some degree need to do these things. How you do those things is less of a worry for me. So when people come in and they want to strength train and they quote unquote need to squat and they need to deadlift, the first question I always ask them is, okay, what have you been told? Why do you need these things? And it's well, okay, well, because I need to get up and out of a chair, I need to do this. So it's functional, know, blah, blah.

And I think that narrative of functional exercise is slowly, slowly, slowly ⁓ fading away a bit, luckily. And I think just the shift to what's the goal of your exercise is more important. So if I'm using the squat, because that's a good leg strengthening exercise for me, and it's a good way to target my quads, and this is a common answer I'll get, then I also introduce people to a seated leg extension.

a split squat, a step up, a step down. You know, we could probably rattle off 17 other knee dominant or quad based exercises, which will also strengthen your leg. Same thing with the deadlift. Well, you know, I need to target my glutes or my hamstrings. Well, okay, we can do that with a hamstring curl. We can do that with a hip thruster. We can do that with a single leg bridge. It doesn't need to be a deadlift.

If you do not have the capacity for a deadlift or a squat and by capacity, I mean how your joint moves, what is your pain levels? And then maybe to some degree, do you actually have a local deficit due to an injury or a surgery? And the easiest way to think about that is ACL reconstruction, Achilles reconstruction, Rotator cuff repair. I have to strength train to get better. I have to squat to get better.

Well, yeah, but you also need a quad to squat. You know, I need to do calf raises to strengthen my Achilles. Yeah, but you also need a gastroc soleus complex to do that. So when there is these local deficits preventing people from squatting or hinging or pressing, we do really need to work on those local deficits because that is the constraint or that's the block to getting you to do those things that you want to do. Assuming you don't have that, we're not

you know, following some post-op protocol where we have to gradually bring you up over the course of three, six, nine, 12 months. And you're just like, I have pain all the time. Well, then here's the good news. We can still build you a program that allows you to push and pull and squat and hinge and carry, because there are a hundred different ways to push and pull and squat and hinge and carry. And we can make all of these movements.

more attendable and suitable for you and your body and your current fitness level, rather than force feeding you into the big three because you have to sort of thing. Where do you stand on that?

Joe Gambino (06:35)
Yeah, I like that approach I think I'm of the mindset that You don't want to put yourself in a box so to speak so if something is uncomfortable and it is painful as you mentioned there are Lots of options that you can do today, right? Like and options that typically most Most people don't really like to do like I don't know anyone in their right mind that's like I look forward to a rear foot elevator split squat today, you know, but

great alternative if you're struggling with squatting or it's painful and but you can do stuff on you know one leg is is much more tolerable to your body. A lot of times for lower back pain right that that is the case for some people maybe back squat is uncomfortable maybe so even so is front squatting right but we can bring someone on a single leg and they feel good right. So again a lot of different variations different things you can do and

I'll just leave it there at that. I think, ⁓ you know, goals is the most important factor in all of this, right? Hey, I want to age better. I want to be able to get up off the ground. I want to be able to get out of a chair. I want to be able to go run a 5k with my daughter, whatever, whatever that looks like for you. Right. That is the only thing that matters. It doesn't matter the tools that get you there. Right. So if we're looking at getting you to run again, right. Like a, okay, sure. We need to figure out what the mobility issues are. What's driving pain. How can we start to bring that down?

But we can still get strong. Cross training is just as ⁓ important to someone who's running or wants to get out of a chair, right? Like doing strength training has a lot of really beneficial things for somebody. So just do, I think you can just modify whatever it is that you want. Find what you can do today. If you really find it as like we talked earlier about like identity versus like, just think I need it. If you just think you need it, you probably can just find other modifications.

and you probably don't even need to think about looking back. If it's something that's important to you, maybe powerlifting is your sport, or maybe you do Olympic lifting, or maybe you like CrossFit, and there's a whole lot of these movements in there, well, let's modify, let's let you get a training effect now. Let's help build you some confidence around your pain and movement, and then let's work on the tools that will allow you to get back into squatting and maybe dead lifting and benching and whatever those exercises look like. And then also I find that sometimes people

also are very fixated on like how my feet are positioned or how my hands are positioned in a bench. And I have to do deadlifts with my feet together and I can't do sumo because that's cheating or whatever that is. And sometimes modifications just like that can make a whole big difference for somebody. I squatting is that kind of like big one that the PT industry and the fitness industry talks about, ⁓ know, going a little bit wider, turning your feet out, you know, like I think.

For anyone listening, if you're working with, if you were working with me, there's two tests I have. There's my eye test and then there's the field test. What does it feel like to that person? If you're not working with anyone, you're just listening to this podcast, you go into the gym later and you're gonna test these things out, it's the field test. If you were squatting and you went slightly wider or you just turned your feet out more and you felt like you got deeper, it felt smoother, it didn't feel stiff, it wasn't painful, it's probably the position that you should be squatting in. Same thing with bench press. If you decide to go a little like I was benching,

with my old grip, I was feeling a little discomfort of my shoulder. I went a little bit wider, all of sudden benching felt really great, felt stronger than it has felt in a long time. It's probably a grip that I should continue to go with, right? So I think, you know, we learn these things from, the fitness industry and the PT industry learn one thing and it can swing it in a completely terrible direction. We can take it too far. But then I think there's not kind of, you know, there's so much information out there that as people who are trying to just learn about.

fitness, learning about their pain, learning about rehab, that there's, ⁓ you know, they put themselves into these boxes because they've learned from this PT or they saw it on this YouTube video and they gave it a try and now you're kind of like stuck in one way when movement is I think kind of like a it's exploratory, right? It's not just I'm stuck in X, Y and Z. I have to do this exactly this way and this is the process, right? Movement is

what we make of it. It is how we move our bodies in space. is, you know, I think play needs to be a part of it. We've talked about playing this part. I think getting people into different things and challenging them in different ways and move them in different positions is always going to be good for somebody. And anytime somebody is in pain, novelty is a really, really strong thing. Whenever you give somebody a new input to their body, as long as it's not a painful one, people usually tolerate that pretty well and move in a good direction. So I'll leave it there, Joe.

Take your time.

Joe LaVacca (11:23)
Yeah. Well, I, I'm glad that you brought up a few things and number one, these three lifts, you know, your squat, your hinge, your bench press are called power lifts. There are people who spend their sport doing power lifting competitions. And that's when they go and actually compete in the one lift and they train that one lift over and over and over again.

And for you and I, or our clients who are creative directors and lawyers or dentists and social workers, they're lucky to get to the gym once a week or twice a week on a good week that often is not consistent and either doing things on their own or maybe with trainers who are just constantly varying things or switching things up.

too often too soon. So you're never really getting the same practice that an athlete in the sport is. So the idea of I have to back squat because that's what the fitness industry says is crazy. Let's all remember the back squat is a made up exercise. Our cavemen forefathers, our hunter gatherer forefathers did not back squat. They, to your point as well, played.

They interacted, they explored things in their environment. They ran, they walked, they had social support systems, right? The list goes on and on on what kept quote unquote them healthy. We created a lot of these exercises and fitness based movements because that is our bio hack. That is the hack for our modern lifestyles that we can live now to 80, 85 and beyond because we invented the gym. And now I don't have to run.

12 miles hunting and gathering. I don't have to climb a tree anymore. bringing the idea back to again, your other point, there's no specific position for this either. So, so many times people's squats change dramatically when we just slightly elevate their heels and they're disappointed because, you know, I'm cheating. No, you're not. You're using a tool.

to help you get better at the motion you want to get better at. Isn't that the point? When we change it from a back squat to a front squat. ⁓ I don't really like front squats, but yeah, but the weight here actually is your coach to stay upright and work the position better and have less pain or get the desired results that you want of muscle soreness or hypertrophy or strength. And then it's the same thing with the deadlift, right? Bending your knees slightly.

your chest position a little taller. Just does wonderful things for people and it's so simple and yet they're focused on the wrong idea or the idea that I have to look the same as everyone else or do this motion the same as everyone else and if we go back and YouTube our powerlifting competitions those people are all different shapes and sizes. They're taking

all different stances. They don't probably pass your eye test or my eye test during their max lifts and that's okay. But they train over and over and over again. That is their sport where you and I maybe squat once a week or deadlift once a week. That's not going to be enough to get better at something that we want to improve. So take a wider stance, let your toes turn out.

These are where, you know, with assessments that you and I do, we can make sense of people's positions when we're looking at hip rotation, like we mentioned, and we're looking at knee rotation, like we mentioned, we're looking at ankle dorsiflexion, or even maybe some segmental mobility of the spine. We can probably guess what's going to be the most comfortable position for you, but that's because we're assessing you. And I think the biggest issue I have with lot of trainers teaching their clients deadlifts and squats is that

Every day in the gym, hear it. Keep your toes straight ahead. Keep your back up. Do this, do that. And it's like, well, hold on. I actually know that person. They were a patient of mine. It's the complete opposite thing of what I actually told them to do to find comfort in their body. But yet we're so contained into this idea of perfect form. There's only one way of doing things. There's a right way of doing things. And that might be true for some of us, but

I think the bigger goal is trying to find the optimal, most efficient, effective way for you. And then repeating that over and over again. And if it's not a barbell, it could be a kettlebell. It could be a dumbbell. It could be supine on your back versus standing. mean, there is a hinge pattern everywhere. There is a squat pattern everywhere and there's a push pattern everywhere in every position.

So it doesn't have to look like a bench press for you to get the most out of your pushing exercises. It doesn't have to look like a squat for you to get the most out of your knee dominant exercises and so on and so forth. So I think that would be, you know, big piece takeaways for me right there.

Joe Gambino (16:49)
Yeah, I like that. I have two thoughts based on what you said. And the first one just being like, you you mentioned seeing someone being cued in a very specific way. And this is something that brings me back to my personal training days.

Joe LaVacca (17:01)
Just say cute? Cute? Cute? Like cute? Cute? It's cute?

Joe Gambino (17:03)
Cute? Cute? I don't know what I said because

you got me. I don't know. I probably did, but that's not the word I intended to say. ⁓

Joe LaVacca (17:13)
I was just

looking at somebody like looking all cute and their squats and their bench press and I'm walking over to them. I'm like, hey, that's a, ⁓ cute. ⁓ okay. ⁓ I you said cute. That's why he's throwing me off there. So listeners, yeah, listeners. Okay, so if you heard cute like I did, no, Joe said cue, cue, no T. All right, Joe, continue. Thank you for clearing that up.

Joe Gambino (17:17)
⁓ Q, Q. Yes, no T, no T, no T. Yeah, look at them, look at that outfit. Now it's all about height.

Yes, yes. Thank you for the clarification there. You know, we need to be,

we need to be clear on what I'm saying here. ⁓ but yeah, when you, we're cueing somebody, this is something that I've believed in for, for a very long time that if, say I'm coaching somebody and I'm giving them a cue and they don't figure it out and the movement looks the same and I give them another cue and the movement doesn't change and I give them another cue and the movement doesn't change at some point. It's not the coaching.

It's not the failure of the person to be able to understand it. It's very likely that we're trying to ask them to get into positions that they can't get into. So in these cases, all we have to do is make a subtle change to foot position, to hand position, to the starting position, whatever it looks like for that particular lift. And then all of sudden the cues make a whole lot more sense to somebody. And sometimes that could be mobility restriction. It can be a whole lot of different things.

But that that would be one point that I want to bring up here and the other one that that I wanted to bring up is you know, we were talking about people who You know, hey, we're training for the sport. It's powerlifting. It's Olympic lifting and they do a lot of it to get good at their sport so they can lift tremendous amount of weights and you know potentially break records and compete at a high level and Then there's us who just enjoy lifting for for the sake of lifting I mean I enjoy powerlifting I'll bench squat deadlift. I enjoy doing those things

But I think we just need to remember that for the people like us, we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, that movement variability, a big theme on the show, is very, very important. And when you train for it at an elite level, you sacrifice movement variability to become good at those things, right? You need to train the exact same pattern, the foot position, everything, right? So that those tissues can adapt very specifically to be able to handle high amounts of load.

when our job is not to get paid that way or compete at a high level, maybe you still want to get really strong in those pathways, but we need to have movement variability. So we do need to explore outside those typical buckets and do sumo deadlift sometimes and not just conventional. We need to do trap bar sometimes and not just barbell. And maybe we need to do some RDLs or some rack pulls versus being off the floor. Changing things will change our tissues load and give us more movement variability. It's the same reason why we do

single leg deadlifts and we add rotational components to some of these things. Why sometimes we do suitcase deadlifts or unilateral front squats with kettlebells? Because it starts to change the way that we load things and how we have to figure out how to produce force. And when we're looking to feel good, be better movers, have better control of our body because we want to go play golf or go run or go play basketball or whatever it is for that person, those are the things that carry over, right? Having more

movement options, more movement skill, not how much can I squat, how much can I do it. There's definitely gonna be a point of diminishing returns. Once you can squat, maybe one to 1.5 times your body weight, like getting to two times your body weight, is that gonna make a significant impact to how athletic you feel or your life? Probably not, but doing some of these other things and exploring different planes of motion and exploring.

Different variations and doing unilateral versus, you bilateral one leg versus two legs like all those things at the end of the day I think will help the average person move better feel better perform better across the board

Joe LaVacca (21:07)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man. I think that's the perfect way to end it. Joe, cute. That was a cute episode. Joe, thank you for your time, your thoughts. We love you. Listeners, thank you for your time. And please share your thoughts with us. Comment on what you think about the Big Three. Let us know about future topics you'd like to listen to. And don't forget to come back next week for another exciting episode of the Beyond Pain.

Joe Gambino (21:14)
Cute!